What has become of our freedoms in these United States.
Feisty Denver librarian and journalist Carol Kreck, 61, received a citation and was threatened with incarceration for showing up OUTSIDE a McCain rally with a sign that said “McCain = Bush”. Video of the proceedings shows us the progression of her ouster from the rally area, and here’s the Denver Post’s report.
Headline is wrong
How about woman who couldn’t follow rules removed from rental hall after warning.
It’s a public event
She couldn’t be arrested for trespassing. The sign wasn’t even “bad.” It’s contained no obscene language.
What rules? “You shouldn’t dare question the presidential candidate because they are better than you?”
The rule was no signs
No signs no matter what they said. No pro-McCain no anti-McCain, no pro vegan, no pro beer, no signs.
If you read the articles your comments might be more informed.
Sorry, she wasn’t arrested,
Sorry, she wasn’t arrested, but given a citation. Still, it’s a public event. The police were just making crap up.
Do you even read the articles
Do you even read the articles, or do you just get worked up by the headlines and spout nonsense.
Not a public event
Campaign rented the hall. They can exclude who they want. No state actor involved to invoke 1st amendment. But police were state actor, you say. Nope, they were just enforcing the wishes of the private party to remove a trespasser.
If Joe Smith rented that same building for a wedding and a woman showed up with a sign that said “Joe’s wife is a _____”. Joe could tell the person to leave. If they didn’t leave the police could remove them. Person could not sue Joe for a violation of the 1st Amendment because there is no state actor.
Even so
Even if it was rented out by the campaign isn’t the act of kicking out somebody like that telling of how this campaign is run and how this candidate would behave if he did become President?
How things would be if McCain were elected?
Do you mean that all people would be expected to follow all rules and laws. Well, I’m all for that.
Kicking out people that break the rules, well that should really upset criminals and illegal aliens.
Um… Hooray for the idiots we’ve all become?
Yeah, I mean, there are subtle nuances here… not that rules were broken, as that’s pretty obvious, but that the organization who sent this lady (and, evidently, others) weren’t necessarily going there to show peaceful dissent and exercise their right to free speech (which I agree didn’t actually exist, as they weren’t technically on public property.)
It was, as mdoneil says, stated that there no signs allowed… for anyone. They didn’t ask her to leave point blank… they asked her to get rid of the sign. If she wanted to go in and ask McCain a question, or hear what he had to say and then leave after the fact and tell everyone who would listen what a dork she thought he was… they weren’t stopping her from doing so. They wanted her to ditch $3 worth of cardboard and marker in an appropriate receptacle, or put it back in her car. It’s not a terribly unreasonable request, especially if every damn soul going in had to adhere to it. They didn’t tell her she wasn’t allowed, or welcome to attend the event. Her inanimate object was not allowed.
Personally, not real big into McCain… but I can not help but think that in some way, if she wanted to make a difference instead of just making a huge scene, she’d have ditched the stupid sign, gone in and heard him out, and then found a forum where she could say what she thought was in error, rationally, point by point, using the actual words McCain used as primary sources (primary sources! She’s a librarian!) to support her McCain=Bush argument. Unfortunately, getting thrown out is a lot more romantic and dramatic than using the brain you have to ask the uncomfortable questions, come up with the answers or at least plausible solutions, and then tell your friends, family and community why you think the things you do, and why they should too.
So yeah, privately rented venue, and the people who were staging the… protest? Sign-in? were told in advance that they could not rent space, and they could not carry signs inside. (I’m impressed they were obviously allowed cameras.) They didn’t say “Keep the hell out.” The secret service guy wasn’t particularly warm and cuddly or forthcoming… but you know what? Not a public venue, not her playground… He didn’t have to be. He didn’t seem like he was being a real jerk about it either. And the cop… I mean, aside from the fact he looked like he was about fourteen years old… was really quite pleasant and reasonable. Seeing that she was trespassing (hey, sorry) and that she was being argumentative about it (hey, sorry again, but it is possible to ask questions and leave without being quite so… eager to make a scene out of it), I think she got off pretty easily.
Honest to god, I don’t think too much of Bush. I try not to think of him much at all, actually. When rights are legitimately stepped on, we all need to make noise. But in this case, I think we sorta need to tell this lady and the attached organizations (on all sides) to really… pipe down. I sure as hell don’t need or want to take her word on who to vote for if she can’t understand the really simple alternative she was given, or why her rights weren’t stepped on.
Two peas in a pod
When you watch the video there is a guy in the background dressed as a peapod that has pictures of McCain and Bush on it. I am sure the message is that Bush and McCain are two peas in a pod. When the lady is escorted out the pee pod leaves to. You can see him in the background posing for pictures.
Man, I so wish that the pea pod would have put up a fight. It would have been the best YouTube video in history to have the police night sticking and tazering the pea pod.
Secret Service or McCain Spinmeisters
The question came up that the complaint was made by “representatives” of the Secret Service. In the past at some Bush rallies, some of these “representatives” were found to be campaign workers who got the SS to flack for them. Obviously, the Secret Service does not oppose signs, as you see them at many rallies. I suspect that the librarian goofed in not asking the policeman to identify the Secret Service officer, and to ask for identification to make sure they were really who they said they were.
R. Lee Hadden (These are my own opinions!)
At that same location…
At that same location the week before a reception for a committment ceremony between two young men was held. This committment ceremony was held because these two men were not able to legally marry, yet they wished to publicly declare their love and fidelity for one another.
A man carrying a bible and a cardboard sign saying “God Loves Everyone, Even Homosexuals” was ejected and given a ticket for tresspass after warning after the police asked him to put the sign away or leave. They were asked to have the man put his sign away by a member of Denver GLBTQ Equality, an equal rights group.
How is this different from the situation above?
Should the police officer be required to identify who asked them to have the man put the sign away or leave? If he refused to do either should the police be required to debate the validity of the trespassing law with the alleged trespasser or is that more suitable for a courtroom?
The article seems to say
The article seems to say signs aren’t allowed but buttons are.
So surely just wear very big buttons advocating your beliefs? That would be allowed.
Secret Service Not Involved
An article shows that the Secret Service did not request that an old lady with a sign that was not allowed be removed from McCain event.
Not that I thought it was the USSS, they could care less about signs or demonstrations, but are concerned with the safety of the protectee. If she where whacking him with the sign, that would be another story.
I think it is some type of pass the message problem. It came from one guy who saw a guy in a suit mention the sign, it went to somoene else, and then someone else who told the guard, who told the police.
She should have worn it as a t-shirt, heck the pea pod guy was OK, so a t-shirt would have been cool.
Not Unusual
This type of action isn’t unusual when politicians make public appearances.
Two years ago I traveled with my husband to the National Nurse Anesthetists’ convention. Bill Clinton was the keynote speaker at the convention. All attendees were told that no signs would be allowed in the Civic Center hall, on the grounds, or near the building. No t-shirts, buttons, hats, etc., with words would be allowed in the hall, building, grounds, etc. Attendees were told that they would be ejected if they did not follow these rules and arrested if they refused to leave. They were also told that Mr. Clinton would refuse to speak if there were any protesters.