Gay Lit Collections For Teens

Originally posted at SHUSH...

    Back in early December I
posted a
request
for Debra Whelan at School Library Journal. She was looking for a
conservative viewpoint on gay teen collections in school libraries. I don't know
if anyone contacted her or not but I said I'd post what I sent when the article
came out, which apparently it did last month:

Hi Debra,

Here's my take...

First and foremost I don't believe schools should be getting into issues of
sexuality at all. They have a responsibility to educate students on what sex is
and how it works but the issue of sex as pleasure is something best left to parents.
The excuse used that parents don't talk to their children about sex is an excuse
used by those who simply don't like what some parents are saying. Ideas about
abstinence, marriage and monogamy are anathema to certain groups of people who
believe that if it feels good it must be okay. Bringing sexuality into the schools
is a way of promoting only that viewpoint.

On the issue of teens and being gay I could tell by your message you don't have any
question there is such a thing as a gay teen. But not everyone agrees with the view
that a person is born gay. I believe everyone is born with traits of both sexes and
the levels of those traits vary from person to person. So certainly some men can
have a high level of female traits but that doesn't make them a woman. If you are
born male you grow up to be a man and all the responsibilities implied with that.
If you wish to turn your back on it you are free to do so but its a decision to be
made as an adult, not a child. Until adulthood its the parent's role to try and mold
the child as best they can. And no parent is ever going to encourage their children
to be gay.

So yes I also believe that everyone is influenced by the environment they grew up in
and that certainly can be a negative environment. People weren't born wanting to be
prostitutes or pedophiles or to take part of any number of an incredibly long list
of sexually deviant activities ranging from the mildly kinky to the permanently
damaging, both physically and mentally. But it is only political correctness that
has allowed homosexuality some form of special protection which many feel is
undeserved. It is not anymore normal then a monk who chooses celibacy or the
individual that can only find sexual pleasure in being tied up in intricate knot
work. The same outside influences that push one person into a gay lifestyle could
just as easily push them into these others. Yet no one is advocating special
collections in schools for these other subjects or asking for special rights for
such groups.

...so there are my basic views on the subject. Sex is subject as big as any science
so trying to explain a viewpoint on any part of it can get very involved, it touches
on so many other issues. But I tried to keep it succinct. Its also a very hot topic
with some people, so good luck with your article.

Greg
SHUSH

    The only arguments given in the article for not having such collections are
the straw-man of avoiding-controversy which is kicked around throughout and then there's
the quote from the lesbian librarian who says
"Unfortunately, some
media specialists have personal objections to gay literature and are quick to throw
the concept of intellectual freedom out the window..."

    Yeah this article isn't biased at all. Speaking of the lesbian
librarian here is her introduction:

    Arla Jones, Barton's librarian at Lawrence High School and
founder of the school's Gay-Straight Alliance, has become the school's de facto
counselor for gay teens because of her extensive gay literature collection and the
fact she's a lesbian herself.

    Emphasis mine. Besides smacking of 'creepiness' I find it funny that we're
so PC that a lesbian can set-up shop in a high school in a way that should get most
people fired for gross misconduct. It would be as if a Christian librarian set-up a
chapel in the school and started giving communion. I wonder how Republican students
or Christian students feel about getting help from Ms. Barton? Do you think she
treats them the same if she knows? I don't.

    The opening bit was ridiculous. Erica Barton (not her real
name) liked girls since kindergarten? I didn't like girls in kindergarten and I'm a
straight male. She was so confused about being gay in the fifth grade that she tried
to kill herself by slitting her wrists. Am I really expected to believe that coming
out of the closet is supposed to cure someone this emotionally disturbed? Or that she
thinks she's gay is even the problem?

    And then of course the Matthew Shepard card is played, poster
boy for abused gays. Except
he's not
. Has there been violence against gays? Yes. Has there been violence by
gays? Yes, just ask the parents of
Jeffrey Curley and
Jesse Dirkhising. No
amount of books is going to stop people being violent against other people. Tough
laws, tough punishments, yes. Reading, no.

    Why such a biased and absurd article? Well we're given that
answer in the editorial by Editor-in-Chief, Brian Kenney who is gay and
says:

It takes guts to create libraries that support the needs of all students. It takes
even more guts to support collections that may attract fierce opposition. But that
just happens to be our job.

    Well, no it isn't. School libraries are there to fill the
needs of the student, not the wants or imaginings of a child. Mr. Kenney is pushing a
personal agenda and shame on him for dragging his profession into it.

Comments

Please don't.

Greg, if you don't want to be gay then please don't be gay.Thank you.

Re:Please don't.

I won't, but if I chose to be that would be my business and I wouldn't feel the need make it an issue with the rest of the world.

Gay themed books

Most gay themed books for YA's do not have anything to do with the pleasures of gay sex. Most of them deal with the issues of being a gay teen. How do you tell friends and family. How do you deal with the very real issues of homophobia from the people around you in school and at home. Being Gay isn't just about sex. It is tied up with who you are attracted to in a romantic and emotional sense.

Some of the gay themed books deal with the way straight members in the family relate to their gay siblings.

There is a world of difference between the Joy of Gay Sex and Deliver us from Evie.

Let me ask you a question: how many gay themed titles for YAs have you read?

Re:Gay themed books

How many pro-straight titles have you read?

Don't ask me stupid questions just as a way to ignore the arguements I'm making. Everything you said depends on the simple idea that you think that all homosexuals are born as homosexuals and must be homosexuals and deserve special treatment because of their homosexuality. Something I clearly disagree with.

Re:Gay themed books

There are quite a few teen titles that deal with the traditional girl/boy realtions, and the difficulties of being a teen and trying to figure your way through a budding relationship. And I have read quite a few of them.

If you're going to criticize gay-themed teen literature, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask how many of those titles you have actually read, and what your experience with the subject matter is.

Putting aside for the moment the how one becomes gay, the fact is there are gays -- teens who know or suspect that they are gay -- in Middle School and High School. Somehow without being trained or prompted, they find themselves attracted to members of the same gender. What is wrong with having books on the shelf that attempt to help them come to terms with that particular part of their life? These books are not teaching them to be gay. They are trying to describe and address issues of being teen and gay.

Parents and their children

You made an interesting comment: "And no parent is ever going to encourage their children to be gay."

Actually, I doubt that most parents spend a great deal of time trying to encourage their children one way or the other. I think the vast majority of children adopt their sexuality without being "encouraged". Believe it or not, we actually have much more important things to worry about as our children grow than making sure that they become "straight". I certainly didn't sit my boys down and tell them that they have to be straight, or that it would be better that they were straight. Unless someone didn't tell me about it, my wife didn't either.

Re:Gay themed books

You made the claim: "They have a responsibility to educate students on what sex is and how it works but the issue of sex as pleasure is something best left to parents." Which seems to imply that gay-themed books are doing exactly that. Which is why I asked how many gay-themed books for teens you've read. If you haven't read any, or very many, that would call into question the above statement. Because you're assuming that is what they are doing without any direct knowledge. In short, you're just guessing. And it's a pretty bad guess at that.

Being gay is not about sex and pleasure. Being gay is about attraction to people of the same gender. And that attraction is in part sexual, but it is also romantic and emotional.

Re:Gay themed books

If two people of the same sex have an emotional relationship that isn't sexual, then its not homosexuality. And romance is just sex with a Hallmark card.

If its a gay themed book then its promoting a certain lifestyle that many people disagree with and may not want their kids reading.

Re:Parents and their children

Really? So you don't teach them about being men or how to treat women? You're not planning on having "the talk"?

Re:Gay themed books

No no, I said pro-straight. Granted I don't know of any but you're so big on reading every book on the shelf I figure you must have taken the time to track down a YA novel that deals with homosexuality from a pro-straight viewpoint. I assume you read it so that you could be well informed on these discussions.

And I'm not going to put aside the issue of how one becomes gay just because its inconvenient to you. You haven't addressed a single point from the original post concerning the bias of the article, the idea of librarian as sex counselor, or the idea that a girl can know she's gay when she's in kindergarten. You just want to spin and make the conversation about something else.

Re:Gay themed books

LOLOL, talk about spin Greg. I have not read "every single book on the shelf", nor have I claimed too. I have read quite a few books in the Young Adult section because I happen to be the YA librarian (and a Reference Librarian - in a small library, you sometimes have to wear several hats). Go figure.

I have not come across one that is "pro-straight" in the context that is advocates for heterosexuality over homosexuality. I assume that a book that shows a sucessful relationship between a teen girl and a teen boy is pro-straight in that it is providing a positive example of a heterosexual relationship that is working. Oh, for the record, I have never come across a "pro-homosexual" book if you mean one that claims that homosexuality is a better "choice" than heterosexuality. The works that I have seen do not assume that one is better than the other.

I wasn't dodging the issue Greg. I simply didn't see it as important too the issue that there are Gay teens. Whether by Nature or Nurture, they do attend our schools and live in our communities. For my part, I believe that people don't, for the most part (and because there will always be an exception) choose their sexuality. I think that nature makes that choice for them. But, in the end, it doesn't matter to me. Because there are gay teens, and having books that deal with issues of interest to them is important.

I'm addressing issues that you brought up in the first paragraph of your letter. It that's not what you want to talk about, I'm sorry about that. If you don't wish to have discussion about that, then don't post the comments. You don't get to choose for me which parts of your post I wish to comment on.

Counseling gay teens or forming a support group is not the same as being a sex counselor. Unless you know for a fact that she is counseling them on how to have sex? By the way, gay teens can be Republicans AND Christians. Or even Christian Republicans. And, I believe there are Christian and Republican groups in schools advised by like-minded teachers. It seems to me you simply want to exclude gays because, well, they are gay. By all means, lets marginalize them even more. And there are not, to the best of my knowledge, "Straight" groups because I have never heard of straights having issues of being marginalized or attacked in schools, or socieity, for being heterosexual. However, we do provide books that do focus on the problems of dating. And from what I've seen, they usually operate under the assumption that the couple is heterosexual.

The issue, for me, of the women who "knew" when she was in Kindergarten that she was gay is tangential to the real issue of do we, or do we not, provide books in school or public libraries that address homosexuality in teens written for a teen audience. That issue stands alone of Lesbian librarians running support groups or women who knew they were gay in Kindergarten. You complain about "straw men" but that is exactly how you are using those examples. Are those examples the norm or the exception?

Re:Parents and their children

The talk has nothing to do with being gay or straight. It would be the same talk.

I taught my children to treat everyone with respect, and to treat them as they would like to be treated. I'm not sure how you mean by how to "treat women." And even at that, I still did not sit them down and tell them that I expected them to be heterosexual. Or that I expected them to date girls.

Re:Gay themed books

No, if there is romance invovled and emotional attachment between a same gender couple, that is homosexuality. Sex can be a part of it, but not necessarily. There can be kissing and holding hands, and displays of affection. Sex can be an important part of Love, but it is not always necessary. There are many couples who are in love, who would be considered heterosexual, but where one of them cannot perform the sex act . The sex act alone does not make one hetero- or homo- sexual. It simply determines with which gender you are more likely to find meaning with in the sex act.

Re:Gay themed books

You're being literal to the point of absurdity.

Re:Parents and their children

Unless you yourself are gay then everything you do or say concerning relationships is liable to be spelled out in heterosexual terms. It won't matter whether you intend to or not.

Re:Parents and their children

Well, my talk with my boys didn't have anything to do with relationships. It had more to do with protection, masturbation, etc... I did show interest when they started dating, and asking them how did it go, what did they do, etc..

So, since the vast majority of gay teens probably have heterosexual parents, how do you think they became gay when every verbal and non-verbal message they were getting is that being heterosexual is the way things are?

Re:Gay themed books

I wasn't dodging the issue Greg. I simply didn't see it as important too the issue that there are Gay teens. Whether by Nature or Nurture, they do attend our schools and live in our communities. For my part, I believe that people don't, for the most part (and because there will always be an exception) choose their sexuality. I think that nature makes that choice for them. But, in the end, it doesn't matter to me. Because there are gay teens, and having books that deal with issues of interest to them is important.

That's as bad as the arguement "they're going to have sex anyway, lets make sure they have everything they need to get it right". It also highlights an old arguement, you don't distinguish between adults and children, I do.

I'm addressing issues that you brought up in the first paragraph of your letter. It that's not what you want to talk about, I'm sorry about that. If you don't wish to have discussion about that, then don't post the comments. You don't get to choose for me which parts of your post I wish to comment on.

That's true, I just get to point out what you're ignoring.

Counseling gay teens or forming a support group is not the same as being a sex counselor. Unless you know for a fact that she is counseling them on how to have sex? By the way, gay teens can be Republicans AND Christians. Or even Christian Republicans. And, I believe there are Christian and Republican groups in schools advised by like-minded teachers. It seems to me you simply want to exclude gays because, well, they are gay. By all means, lets marginalize them even more. And there are not, to the best of my knowledge, "Straight" groups because I have never heard of straights having issues of being marginalized or attacked in schools, or socieity, for being heterosexual. However, we do provide books that do focus on the problems of dating. And from what I've seen, they usually operate under the assumption that the couple is heterosexual.

For the record I don't think there should be teacher 'led' groups based on religion or political party. If a group requires a monitor that's one thing but the teacher shouldn't be leaning in any direction, I think its sends a bad message (the exception would be groups dealing with political science or philosphy in general and covers a variety of views). Same goes for librarians.

Re:Parents and their children

"So, since the vast majority of gay teens probably have heterosexual parents, how do you think they became gay when every verbal and non-verbal message they were getting is that being heterosexual is the way things are?"

Who knows? The number of reasons are many and varied. I remember noticing that a number of the victims from the Catholic abuse scandal grew up to be gay. Do you think they were born that way? I did say men are born with various levels of female traits. I simply said that it still comes down to choice.

Re:Gay themed books

No, I'm acknowledging that while most serious relationships lead to sex, that it is not necessasry and that in a small minority of cases, they do not. And that the act of sex does not necessarly determine someone's sexuality. We call a relationship between a boy and a girl a heterosexual relationship even if it is only dating and has not lead to sex yet - in fact, we might prefer in many cases that they wait for a whole variety of reasons. That does not change the essential nature of their relationship. The same would pertain to gay teens that were dating. What would be absurd is that contending only until someone has sex can you make a definitive statement that they are either homo- or hetero- sexual.

Re:Gay themed books

We provide tools Greg. Many parents do not have a problem with the books that are offered. Only a few. But they attempt to impose their view on everyone. I applaud their right to determine for their child what they should or should not read. I do not agree with their efforts to keep everyone else away from books they don't like. You don't want your child to read books that deal with homosexuality? Good, then don't let them read those books. Unlike you, I don't expect the library to be a surrogate parent. Just becausey you don't think a topic is appropriate means that all or even a majority of parents feel the way you do. I don't make your children read books about teen homosexuality, kindly don't require that my kids not find those books on the library shelf. It is really that simple. It is a matter of choice.

Re:Gay themed books

" Many parents do not have a problem with the books that are offered. Only a few."

And that is a complete load of crap. I don't think most parents even have a clue as to how bad YA lit has gotten. Yeah we provide tools, we are also a tool ourselves, we're supposed to help parents be informed about what's out there. More often then not I think we're a barrier.

Re:Gay themed books

All of which is true, none of which has anything to do what-so-ever with this conversation.

Re:Parents and their children

I'm assuming that you apply that to women as well. You know, the majority of men who were abused that I've seen all appear to be married and straight. Is there a higher incidence of gay people who are also catholics? What about women who are gay? How does that happen? I haven't seen much of a scandal about priest abuse of girls.

No, I don't think it is a choice. I think your preferences are, by and large, wired in by nature. I don't remember making a choice.. gay or straight, gay or straight... damn, I just can't decide which way to go. Why, in years past, would anyone have chosen to be gay when it would mean that you would lose your job, your friend, and that you might likely end up beaten or dead? Given the homophobic nature of western civilization over the last 500 years (at least), why would anyone make a concious choice to be hated and reviled? Why would some fight it tooth and nail and still be gay?

And what the hell are "male" and "female" traits anyway? I've known some gays that are very "manly" in everything except for the fact that they prefer men. Not all gay men are "swishy" you know. And not all lesibans are butch. The limp wristed gay, I suspect, is more of a gimmick dreamed up by straight guys so that they could sleep at night content in the knowledge that they could always tell the difference. Otherwise, you just never know. Which, again, I suspect is closer to the truth.

Re:Gay themed books

Well, I'll certainly hope you can back up your claim that it is a "load of crap". I tend to believe in the best of most parents. That for the most part they are involved and have an idea of what their teens are reading. Otherwise you're makign the unfounded assumption that the only ones that are involved are the ones that complain.

Re:Gay themed books

Yes it does because you make the assumption that the having gay-themed books on the shelves is teaching teens about gay sex. You're the one that frequently comes back to the issue of sex.

Re:Gay themed books

You made the claim that most parents don't mind what's on the shelves, you back it up.

Re:Gay themed books

Its teaching/promoting homosexuality, you can parse all you want but it all comes under the heading of sex.

Re:Gay themed books

I didn't call your assumptions a "load of crap". By all means you first.

Re:Parents and their children

No, I don't think it is a choice. I think your preferences are, by and large, wired in by nature. I don't remember making a choice.. gay or straight, gay or straight... damn, I just can't decide which way to go. Why, in years past, would anyone have chosen to be gay when it would mean that you would lose your job, your friend, and that you might likely end up beaten or dead? Given the homophobic nature of western civilization over the last 500 years (at least), why would anyone make a concious choice to be hated and reviled? Why would some fight it tooth and nail and still be gay?

Like I said in the post:"People weren't born wanting to be prostitutes or pedophiles or to take part of any number of an incredibly long list of sexually deviant activities ranging from the mildly kinky to the permanently damaging, both physically and mentally. But it is only political correctness that has allowed homosexuality some form of special protection which many feel is undeserved. It is not anymore normal then a monk who chooses celibacy or the individual that can only find sexual pleasure in being tied up in intricate knot work. The same outside influences that push one person into a gay lifestyle could just as easily push them into these others. Yet no one is advocating special collections in schools for these other subjects or asking for special rights for such groups."

And what the hell are "male" and "female" traits anyway? I've known some gays that are very "manly" in everything except for the fact that they prefer men. Not all gay men are "swishy" you know. And not all lesibans are butch. The limp wristed gay, I suspect, is more of a gimmick dreamed up by straight guys so that they could sleep at night content in the knowledge that they could always tell the difference. Otherwise, you just never know. Which, again, I suspect is closer to the truth.

Well that's very scientific of you. Have I said any of those things? No. I have no idea what 'it' is but you can't have it both ways. If a person is born gay its because something is wrong, not right. Something or things changed. Again I don't what but in the cases where homosexuality is from birth simple logic says that something exists.

Re:Gay themed books

Okay. Gay marriage. Only state where its exists, exists by judicial fiat. The majority of the population is not interested in gay marriage. I think its safe to assume that if they saw large collections of gay literature in their high schools they would not be impressed.

Your turn.

Re:Parents and their children

Again I don't what but in the cases where homosexuality is from birth simple logic says that something exists.

What? So you are saying that people are born gay? Like some people are born red-headed? That's not very common, but is it wrong?

"People weren't born wanting to be prostitutes or pedophiles or to take part of any number of an incredibly long list of sexually deviant activities ranging from the mildly kinky to the permanently damaging, both physically and mentally.

Tell me. Please. What is NOT deviant? Is it okay for women to be on top? What about neck-biting? A little dirty pillow talk? Sex toys used by monogomous heterosexual couples? Fantasizing? Masturbation? Gratuitious use of lingerie? Give me your list of what is normal, healthy sex practice, complete with annotations. The whole list. I suspect it's a short one.

Re:Parents and their children

"What? So you are saying that people are born gay? Like some people are born red-headed? That's not very common, but is it wrong?"

I've been saying its a mix. Is it wrong? If its genetic and becomes fixable prior to birth do you think parents will opt to do so?

"Tell me. Please. What is NOT deviant? Is it okay for women to be on top? What about neck-biting? A little dirty pillow talk? Sex toys used by monogomous heterosexual couples? Fantasizing? Masturbation? Gratuitious use of lingerie? Give me your list of what is normal, healthy sex practice, complete with annotations. The whole list. I suspect it's a short one."

You'd be wrong but regardless of the length of the list I don't feel the need to become a school librarian and preach about it to other people's kids.

Re:Gay themed books

Not being impressed, and being against it are two different things. They very while may accept the rationale behind having such a collection in the school library without personally agreeing with the message contained in the books. I'm assuming you just threw in the word "large" and that they would be equally upset with a "modest" or "small" collection?

I would say the general lack of any sort of locally organized protests in most locales may be a good indicator that there is not a lot of resistance, by and large, to gay-themed books being on the shelves of school libraries. This is a pretty thin argument, obviously. And is dependent upon too many unknown factors. However, it is certainly no weaker than your own, and if my contention is a "load of crap", so is yours. ;)

Re:Gay themed books

Thin isn't the word. And if you want to ignore a losing national debate on gay marriage that's your right it just undercuts your arguements.

Re:Parents and their children

Like I said in the post:"People weren't born wanting to be prostitutes or pedophiles..."

Don't you believe that either of those are extreme examples? Prostitution isn't exactly an example of kinky sex. It is the act of selling sex for money, and happens to be illegal in most of the United States. I don't think you can compare an occupation(?) with homosexuality.

Similarily, using pedophilia in a comparison with homosexuality is simply being sensationalistic. The two are in no way significantly similar. And, in fact, in the case of pedophilia, there very well may be biologically determining factors that lead to that illness. Please note, however, that homosexuals are no more likley than heterosexuals go engage in pedophilia, and, in fact, pedophilia is seperate from the adult relations that the pedophile may have. Pedophilia, in addition, is generally seen to be a pathology resulting from previous abuse of the pedophile (I learned this from a conversation with a Social Worker aquaintance). Which has not been shown to be the case with homosexuality. Pedophiles rarely grow up in a safe and loving family situation. My experience has been that homosexuals usually do. The only similarity I can really see is that both homosexuals and pedophiles are in a minority in our society. In which case, you may as well compare prostitution and pedophilia to having blue eyes.

Re:Parents and their children

"People weren't born wanting to be prostitutes or pedophiles or to take part of any number of an incredibly long list of sexually deviant activities ranging from the mildly kinky to the permanently damaging, both physically and mentally. But it is only political correctness that has allowed homosexuality some form of special protection which many feel is undeserved. It is not anymore normal then a monk who chooses celibacy or the individual that can only find sexual pleasure in being tied up in intricate knot work. The same outside influences that push one person into a gay lifestyle could just as easily push them into these others. Yet no one is advocating special collections in schools for these other subjects or asking for special rights for such groups."

Re:Parents and their children

I'm curious, are you implying there is some conflict between "being a man" and being homosexual?

Re:Parents and their children

You claimed that everyone is born with the traits of both sexes. I don't know what you mean by that. What are female traits vs. male traits? You're not saying that I might develop a clitoris somewhere down the road are you? Are you making a distinction between biological traits or traits that are societal constructions?

Re:Gay themed books

Well, given that the number of people who accept gay marriage as something that is fine has grown exponentially over the last 30 years, I wouldn't feel to cocky about your chances of keepings gays from getting married in the next 20 years. Oh, not to mention that rather large number of people who are bothered by gay marriage, but think that civil unions are fine. Your use of the resistance to gay marriage as a indicator of the resistence to gay-themed books in school libraries is really just wishful thinking on your part.

Re:Parents and their children

LOL.. still, you're comparing homsexuality to pedophilia and prostitution.

I guess you're right in the sense that people aren't born WANTING to be homosexual or heterosexual. That just sort of kicks in around puberty. They are, however, born with the genetic and biological directive, in my opinion, of having a sexuality one way or the other(or a preference for both if you're bisexual). Now there are some that believe we are all inherently bisexual, and that society conditions us, for the most part, to be heterosexual.

In the end, why does it matter? Being gay does not hurt anyone anymore than being heterosexual hurts anyone. There are gay teens, and they deserve to have affirming books on the shelf that reflect who they are.

Re:Parents and their children

"In the end, why does it matter? Being gay does not hurt anyone anymore than being heterosexual hurts anyone. There are gay teens, and they deserve to have affirming books on the shelf that reflect who they are."

There are plenty of books in the public library dealing with sex and sexuality on a more mature level. Its not a school library's role to be promoting collections dealing with homosexuality because even if you think homosexuality is predetermined other parents may not. They have a right to not have their kids exposed to it, certainly not to the level described in the article.

And yes, I am comparing all those things, I could also through in bestiality, necrophilia, and any other sex related issue because it all has to do with sex and sexuality.

Re:Parents and their children

I had asked if he would be talking to his sons about being men and then afterward I said:

"Unless you yourself are gay then everything you do or say concerning relationships is liable to be spelled out in heterosexual terms. It won't matter whether you intend to or not."

That's all I said.

Re:Parents and their children

And you would be willing to compare all those things to heterosexuality too?

Re:Parents and their children

I don't see why not.

Re:Parents and their children

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying that.

Re:Parents and their children

Greg,

What's your opinion on dildoes?

Re:Parents and their children

I think librarians probably shouldn't make them available in their collections.

Re:Parents and their children

"You claimed that everyone is born with the traits of both sexes. I don't know what you mean by that. What are female traits vs. male traits? You're not saying that I might develop a clitoris somewhere down the road are you? Are you making a distinction between biological traits or traits that are societal constructions? "

I'd don't even know if you're going to see this in the sea of comments but again in my initial post I distinguished between what you describe as biological and societal. As for male vs female traits, considering the complexity of human beings in general I assume there are certain gender tags or traits throughout someone's makeup. Exactly what those are I don't know and I haven't seen anything that lays it out in detail. There was just a study recently talking about brain patterns of male vs. female so obviously I'm not the only one who doesn't know. And just to throw something else in there was a sentence early on in the SLJ article that stated that 20% of all adolescents have "some degree of same sex orientation". What that means I have no idea and they didn't feel the need to spell it out.

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