ACLU's "Cross"hairs

Rejoice secularists. Another victory has been won.

“Totalitarianism is not possible, unless you erase the past."

Comments

good for the aclu

I'm glad they took the cross off...I'm tired of having xtianity shoved down my throat and disrespecting my beliefs every single day.

s/

How very true--about only the past changes

It would seem to me that the art work of the seal would be under copyright protection, and shouldn't be changed without consent of the artist. Are they going to change the pagan symbol too or just the Christian?

“In the Soviet Union there was a joke,� said radio host Dennis Prager, who is Jewish, as he spoke before the board.

“A very powerful dissident joke—I’m sure that Zev remembers this. They used to say in the Soviet Union, `The future is known; it’s the past which is always changing.’

Re:good for the aclu

"a tiny cross will be removed from the county seal"

This is shoving things down someone's throat? No, I didn't think so.
Spare us the hystrionics.

Re:good for the aclu

Oops, meant to spell it histrionics.

Re:good for the aclu

Well, when one is in the minority it can sure as hell feel like it. If they want to keep their cross then add the symbols of other religions like the Star of David, a symbol of Islam, buddhism, paganism, etc.

Yeah, it's getting a little crowded by now. And as you said, it's a "little" cross--so why is there any fuss about removing it then? If it's sooooooo small, there shouldn't be any problem or discussion about removing it, now should there?

And I wasn't being histronical (Yikes! is that even a word?). That implies I said what I did for effect only. I didn't. I said it because that is how I feel.

s/

Re:good for the aclu

I completely agree. That is why I didn't move to LA. If they had not had the small cross in one quadrant of a portion of their seal I would have moved out there before the dot com bust and been a rich man. Damn them for putting part of their history on their seal.

I think they should also change the name of the city as well because we all know that it means "THE ANGELS"! Does that not offend all of those religious who don't believe in angels? Someone call the ACLU! Lets get all bent out of shape!

Why do people look for ways to be offended? It must be nice to lead such a sheltered life that one has to search for things that offend them.


Oh, and disrespect is not a verb. Disrespecting is not a proper gerund.


I'm tired of people complaining about Christianity and people writing xtianity or xmas when they mean Christianity, or Christmas. Since I doubt you are fluent in Greek or Aramaic please don't use tpyographical end runs to belittle anyone's religion. I can type Pagan, Islamic, Zoroastoran and Ba'hai the way their adherents write them. If you showed the same respect for others' beliefs as you wish them to show yours perchance you would get the respect you long for. In Christianity we have an axiom that states "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Feel free to incorporate that into your beliefs.

ACLU's "Cross" hairs

+1 for a great headline.

interesting...

Criticise Christianity and you get moded as flamebait.

Verrryyyy interesting.

s/

Re:interesting...

Actually you criticised xtianity.

I did see that and I don't think it was particularly inflammatory or flamebait. Since I can't mod and comment the same discussion I couldn't moderate it differently.

Here comes my usual refrain: Everything is not a conspiracy. Few people may have moderated it as flamebait, but think of the people who did not.

Re:good for the aclu

Sorry. I should have said "having disprect for." I'm not usually that sloppy, thank you for the correction.

How is using the common abbreviation of "x" for Christ demeaning anyone? I used it because it IS shorter to type. Don't put meaning behind my typographical choices that are not there.

I do show respect for other people's beliefs, and I do incorporate something similar to the xtian "do unto others" in my spiritual beliefs. I also believe in Karma--and how long have xtian churces and individuals restricted others in their beliefs. How many people have been murdered in the name of xtianity? Do unto others, indeed.

I don't look for ways to be offended. I read the story, I commented on it. Saying good for the ACLU, and because I agree with them doesn't mean I hold all xtians in disrespect. I believe in the seperation of church and state. I admit that I do have disrespect for certain sects of xtianity because of personal experience with those sects. I've never told anyone that they shouldn't follow the religion of their choice, I try to be respectful when telling someone why I may not agree with their beliefs. I rarely get that in return. I've been told by xtians that I should force my father to go to church. He's xtian but because of some very negative experiences with the church, he refuses to go. I've been told I should go to a xtian church because otherwise I'll burn in hell or that I'm an evil devil-worshipper. Yeah, I'd say some xtians are really tolerant[insert sarcasm].

One of my best work friends is a devout xtian; she doesn't believe what I do and vice versa--but we're both very respectful of each others spiritual choices and can openly discuss our beliefs with one another.

I have to address that bit about not using "x" for christ unless I speak greek...um, if I followed your logic from that statement...there's an awful lot of English words that incorporate greek roots--am I banned from using those as well? Does that apply to all foreign words and phrases that have become common in english usage?

I used x for christ throughout this because it is a valid abbreviation and is not showing disrespect for anyone, least of all christ.

s/

Re:interesting...

Conspiracy??? I did not say or imply ANYTHING about a conspiracy. I don't think there IS a conspiracy. I merely found it an interesting occurence.

And since xtianity is a valid (and not disrespectful) abbreviation of christianity, then I did indeed, criticise christianity.

Nothing like splitting hairs, is there? It is one of my favourite hobbies!

s/

Re:interesting...

Splitting hairs is fun, but blowing things out of proportion is much better. *



* Feel free to moderate this as you will but it is humor. I know it is lost on some people (not slashgirl though)

Re:good for the aclu

Hey slashgirl, look at the Los Angeles seal and you will see that there is the Roman Goddess Pomona - the goddess of gardens and fruit trees included. In fact, it is even bigger that the cross.

I can't believe they are shoving this down our throats!!!

Should they take that off? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Re:good for the aclu

Your last sentence says it all! You did not capitalize Christ. You are surely going to burn in hell for that! (do sarcasm HTML tags work in slashcode?)

I do fail to see how a cross, or a crystal ball, or a Islamic Crescent, or donkey teeth or any other religious symbol on a governmental seal which recognizes part of their history can be offensive. I am sure that somebody can find something in every seal or symbol that offends them. Heck to carry it to the extreme I don't like anything round because they suggests reincarnation and I don't believe in that.


Lets have a modicum of sense. If the seal is changed expenses are incurred. New stationery,new signs, new emblems on trucks and cars, new business cards. Are the Zoroastorans going to pay for that, are the Atheists? Nope, everyone who lives in the county has to pay for it.


Where is the right to be free from being offended. I can't find it in the US Constitution or Canadian Constitution Acts. Actually it seems we have the right to offend one another through the freedoms we are allowed to speak our minds.


Can the tiny cross on the seal have been that big a deal to someone that they want to cost the city thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars to effect the change. I guess so, but it is too bad that common sense has gone by the wayside.


If they were designing a seal I could understand your concerns that it not offend anyone by adding a cross, but to take it out many years after the fact is just silly.



s/ I do enjoy reading what you write, thanks for having an oft different opinion. That is what makes this intersting!

Re:good for the aclu

If they want to keep their cross then add the symbols of other religions like the Star of David, a symbol of Islam, buddhism, paganism, etc.

The Roman Goddess Pomona is included in the LA seal.

Re:good for the aclu

Sure, take it off. Why not? Fair is fair. I have no problem with fairness. Even if was of Celtic deity, I'd still say take it off.

But you better watch out. Those Roman pagans have are known, historically, to throw xtians to the lions...

s/

Re:good for the aclu

"Can the tiny cross on the seal have been that big a deal to someone that they want to cost the city thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars to effect the change. I guess so, but it is too bad that common sense has gone by the wayside."

I'm Canadian. I'm used to the government wasting our tax dollars on frivilous fluff. They've got it down to a fine art here. I'm not really conditioned to questioning what the gov't spends our money on. I am however, conditioned to complain about it. And actully if the county just bought a big lot of liquid paper...wouldn't cost so much. Then they could use up all their old stock...(kidding, I'm just kidding)

"s/ I do enjoy reading what you write, thanks for having an oft different opinion. That is what makes this intersting!"

Thanks. I like reading what you write, as well--I enjoy a good debate/discussion. Yeah, it would be boring if we all agreed.

s/

But did the cross change anything?

As a former Los Angeles resident, I've just got to respond on this one.I'm normally very much a separation of chuch and state guy. This instance seems overboard since the symbol was clearly history and not an implied endorsement of a religion.On the other hand, I just CAN'T see this as either a victory for the securlarists or a loss for the Christians. I mean, how did this reminder of Christ actually uplift the people of Los Angeles or bring them closer to God? For crying out loud, Los Angeles has been the PORNO capital of the WORLD since the 1970s. We had major race riots in 1965 and 1992, and Los Angeles is probably the most secular place I've ever been to, with the possible exception of Washington DC. Actually, despite being born and raised in Los Angeles, I never knew there WAS a cross on the seal. No one in the churches I grew up in ever mentioned it.To equate the removal of the cross from the seal as a "victory" for "secularists" is silly. The "securalists" have had Los Angeles firmly in their pockets for decades.Now for MY usual spiel. If God reigns not in the hearts of the people, symbols of God in public places won't help. Until Christ reigns in the hearts of the citizens AND the gov't is a DOER of the words he left in the Gospels, NO earthly gov't HAS a right to incorporate His symbols and rhetoric in their symbols AS representative of the gov't.Having said that, I still think the cross represents history, especially in view of all the other symbols on the Seal. I would only be offended if symbols of a single faith were promenently emblazoned on a government seal or in a gov't building.

Re:good for the aclu

Sounds pretty dopey to me. If we follow that logic, then we are going to have to change lots of names of cities and purge everything that mentions religion. Tis a shame and not required by the Constitution because the cross on the seal is not endorsing a religion similar to the fact that Pomona is not endorsing any religion. Pretty narrow minded.

Re:good for the aclu

And getting dopier.

"...The cross may be replaced by an image of a Spanish mission and the indigenous people who predated the missions.

County spokeswoman Judy Hammond said protesters complained that the ACLU did not question the picture of the pagan goddess Pomona in the center of the seal. Hammond said a graphic of a Native American may replace Pomona."
(The Associated Press State & Local Wire
June 9 2004)

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