The Smash of Civilizations

Steven M. Cohen writes "From Mother Jones:


Another successful landmark has been reached in our occupation of Iraq: The World Monuments Fund has just placed the country on its list of the Earth's 100 most endangered sites. ("Widespread looting, military occupation, artillery fire, vandalism, and other acts of violence are devastating Iraq, long considered the cradle of human civilization.") This is the first time that the Fund has ever put a whole nation on its list and so represents a singular accomplishment for the Bush administration, which knew not -- and cared less -- what it wrought."

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F you

Are you kidding? Are you stupid? Are you retarded? Rate this what you want boys and girls but anyone who thinks Saddam's world of rape and torture rooms was closer to being 'a cradle of civilization' then what we have now has his head so far up his ass he can see out his own mouth.

And we call ourselves professionals. Pheh. A profession requires intelligence.

"Candidate for ALA Council"

Are you kidding? Are you stupid? Are you retarded?This is how you convince people to vote for you?A profession requires intelligence. You've never shown any here.

Re:"Candidate for ALA Council"

I'm happy to debate library issues till the cows come home but don't throw up flamebait nonsense as if its 'news' and then expect me to not call it for what it is: moronic c r a p.

Re:F you

If as you say, "A profession requires intelligence", where's yours?

Why do you have to resort to profanity (F U) simply because another reader understands how devastated the country and people of Iraq has become during the period of Bush's 'war', and you don't seem to 'get it'?

What is it you don't understand about the value of the preservation of art, literature, history, culture and customs? Nobody likes what Saddam did to Iraq, nobody is arguing in his favor.

I concur with the previous commentator, you have not shown any intelligence here, none at all.

Re:F you

What is it you don't understand about the value of the preservation of art, literature, history, culture and customs? Nobody likes what Saddam did to Iraq, nobody is arguing in his favor.

To say that "Bush's 'war'" (my war too btw) is somehow destroying the art and culture of Iraq is to autmatically argue in favor of the status quo before said war.

I didn't resort to profanity. I gave the article and its backers their due. If they don't like it maybe they should try thinking about what it is they are really saying first.

now that...

every comment on this has been rated troll or flamebait, how do we rank the article as such?

Re:F you

If it's your war, sign up. They need you.

Re:Expletive deleted

Greg, the Tigris-Euphrates valley is, in fact, one of the earliest cradles of civilization and of major historical, archeological, and artistic importance, and the looting and destruction of art, artifacts, and manuscripts during and in the aftermath of the war is well-documented and a major loss. This true regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the policy judgments behind the war. Saying so is not in any way defending or supporting Saddam Hussein. Saying that there ought to have been better thought given to how to protect these treasures of the entire human race is, with all due respect to Mr. Rumsfeld, in no way endorsing terrorism or expressing anti-American sentiments. It's our history, too.

Hey Greg, Eat S and Die.

Re: subject, just 'giving you your due'.>To say that "Bush's 'war'" (my war too btw) is somehow destroying the art and culture of Iraq is to autmatically argue in favor of the status quo before said war.Really. Consider: All dogs have four legs. A cat has four legs. A cat is a dog.Implications are funny things. You reason strangely.Are you implying that all these relics and antiquities were being bombed, stolen, and sold on the black-market under Saddam? If so, do you have any facts or proof to back up said statements? Currently there are plenty of facts and proof to back up the fact that relics are being destroyed, stolen and sold. This has happened since America illegally (well, I suppose if we get special exemption from laws that our Supreme Court Justices put together, then it is 'legal' in form, even if not in spirit) started...How're you explaining away those facts? Or are you just La-la-la-ing them into non-existance?Now we *could* discuss causes, which might leave you a leg (a toe) to stand on. But the facts? Those are pretty plain.-- Ender, Duke_of_URL

Re:Expletive deleted

Yes Lis, its our history too. Buts its a dead history. The Iraqi people were not free to add to it. They simply lived at the whims of others relied on nothing but memories of what was, not what could be. Would you rather only live in yesterday or be able to look forward to tomorrow?

In our country we can do both but if it requires the destruction of the former to guarantee the latter then so be it.

Whining about "what Bush has wrought" and ignoring what what Saddam 'wrought' among others Middle East despots is in fact endorsing terrorism and is expressing anti-American sentiments. In fact its pretty disgusting.

Re:Expletive deleted / nice try Lis

Lis, you're very kind to try to explain thousands of years of civilization to GregS*, (your explanation sounds as if it's aimed at a fourth grader), but it's pointless.

It won't do any good to try and instruct him on any subject...his head is made of cement. How he got to be a librarian in the first place is mystery.

Okay mods...

Why's it flamebait?-- Ender, Duke_of_URL

Profanity and LISNews, a request for civility

It was--in my opinion--moderated as such due to the title of the comment. Your excellent point was obscured by the choice of title. Insults and name-calling are in poor form. This site does not need to descend into profanity and foul language to be relevant. We're all better than that.

Christopher the Curmudgeon

Re:Profanity and LISNews, a request for civility

Yup, Ender..."Eat S and die" earned you my little-awarded flamebait mod.

If we were all in the same house, I'd be boxing several sets of ears and scrambling for time-out chairs.

Re:Profanity and LISNews, a request for civility

Ooh! Ooh! Blake! Can we please please PLEASE get a new mod: "Time Out"?

Re:Profanity and LISNews, a request for civility

I've never been much on corporal punishment, but I'm ready to cut some switches. I don't know where you kids are picking up this sort of language. You didn't hear it from me or Blake (at least not online).

Not sure Blake has been reading closely the past few days, as he's been at some work related training. Just wait til your Blake gets home!

Re:F you

George and Tony's war (don't forget we got dragged into the occupation as well) replaced the status quo. The status quo wasn't good for the future preservation of Iraq's cultural past but then it wasn't building vast military camps with thousands of people on ancients sites, it wasn't basing attacks from inside such monuments. From what I remember the iraqi's only started to do that when the wars started, not before.

I guess the biggest thing is that by getting rid of the status quo and failing to replace it with anything (like not setting up security for the museums and sites after the war was 'won) makes them just as guilty.

Like if you owned a shop and the window was broken you'd board it up to stop people stealing things. Not only did the occuping forces break the window and not board it up, they blew off the doors and the roof and then walked away!

Noones saying that the Hussain regime was good but it wasn't as disasterous as what's happened since.

There is one example of Hussein doing massive cultural damage that I can think of, and that is the draining of the marshes. Now that was wrong but he didn't start blowing up ancient monuments like the Taliban did did he.

draining marshes Re:

Noones saying that the Hussain regime was good but it wasn't as disasterous as what's happened since. There is one example of Hussein doing massive cultural damage that I can think of, and that is the draining of the marshes.

Oh my. I've used up my swearing quota for the month so I'm just going to refer you back to my original post.

Re:Profanity and LISNews, a request for civility

Its Blake's site and he's free to do what he wants but other then simply shutting me off (which is certainly his right) neither he nor you nor anyone is going to lecture me on civility as long articles keeping getting posted as offensive as this one.

Re:Profanity and LISNews, a request for civility

Who besides Greg found the article "offensive"? Not I. I found it informational and appropriate.

Re:Profanity and LISNews, a request for civility

Yes birdie because, amazingly enough, intelligent people are still capable of being dumb enough to believe that we are destroying the "cradle of civilization".

Re:Profanity and LISNews, a request for civility

Not me. I was and still am offended by Greg's responses, for the record. I am about to mark him as a "foe", though I have been trying to listen with an open mind to his opinions. Or to at least register him as intelligent. Now, he has lost me. Which I am sure he will consider no great loss. I guess he has given up trying to convince anyone of the soundness of his opinions, besides his own choir.

Re:Profanity and LISNews, a request for civility

There's a time and place for open minds and open discussions. But when I come to a Librarian and Information News Site and am repeatedly faced with absurd articles on anything from the First Lady's private parts to Bush=Saddam then I will respond to those specific articles with the same attitude and closed-mind as the individuals who posted them.

Re:"Candidate for ALA Council"

I don't think the ALA nominating committee has reviewed all the nominations for Council yet, so maybe you should wait until you're actually on the slate before you start advertising that you're running.P.S. Calling possible constitutents "retarded" is probably not the best way to start.

Re:"Candidate for ALA Council"

My understanding is that the slate isn't finalized until early '06. That's too short a time between then and elections to get the word out properly and I don't need permission to say I'm running.

Re:Profanity and LISNews, a request for civility

then I will respond to those specific articles with the same attitude and closed-mind as the individuals who posted them.

You're projecting your shadow again, Greg. If you find article writers close-minded it is because you are so yourself. The problem is not with the articles, the problem is your own reactionism. You have no capacity for nuance. The historical value of the ancient Mesopotamian region is the property of all humanity. It's not Bush's or Hussein's, it's ours. And Amerika is wantonly destroying aspects of that heritage in the same way the Vandals did. And in which Hussein did not. You're just being pissy because it reflects badly on Bush.

I, for one, have tried to tell you since King George the Pathetic started propagandizing about the al-Qaida/Iraq link that there is a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things, and that George would never, ever, get it right.

You don't want to consider that article critically because this is a case of Speaking Truth to Power, and as you support that Power, you cannot allow Truth; any opinion that does not support your prejudices.

And if it's "my war too, btw", then why haven't you signed up to go do your own baby-killing in Iraq. Aren't you being unAmerican? Soft on Terror? Or are you simply following the example set by your draft-dodging, deserter of a president?

Re:Expletive deleted

No positive purpose was served by failing to protect cultural sites (or hospitals, for that matter), by having no plan to protect cultural sites or hospitals after military victory, by disbanding the defeated Iraqi army and sending them off to fend for themselves rather than keeping them in uniform and under military discipline, or by many other things done since the initial military victory that the military and diplomatic professionals had told the Bush administration were Bad Ideas, but which the Bush administration went ahead and did anyway, because it fitted their ideology about how the world ought to work.

There's room for disagreement about whether invading Iraq when we did was the correct war at the correct time. There is no room for disagreement on the shockingly incompetent and inexcusably stupid way the Bush administration refused to have any plan except pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking for the post-military-victory phase of the war, and so there can no excusing them for the utterly predictable consequences of failing to have any plan except pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

How to run for Council

I believe that all Greg needs is a petition with 25 signatures to get his name on the ballot. But, that may be just for re-runners. I'm sure someone will clarify....
Here's the calendar for the 2006 Elections. Here's the form that the nominating committee uses.

Nuance or nuisance?

If you find article writers close-minded it is because you are so yourself. The problem is not with the articles, the problem is your own reactionism. You have no capacity for nuance.

You were smiling as you typed this? Let's see, the lexicon of nuance; Rethuglican, knee-jerk, sniveling shits....A veritable wordsmith of understanding.

And now you bring babies into the discussion. Fine. Why not explain the nuance between King George's baby-killing and the 100,000 + per annum clip of vacuum apirated babies your Kanadian dollars are paying for?

Re:How to run for Council

The petition is just for people running for re-election.

Re:Nuance or nuisance?

Typical TomeyBoy. When all else fails , grab a dead fetus or two and have a parade. It's always the fallback for you & it's really tedious.

Re:F you

Does your credo extend to entitlements, NEA grants, LSTA grants, student loans, abortions...?

Let see, "It's your library. You pay for it".

Re:Nuance or nuisance?

Yep. Leave it to ole tomeboy to conflate a fetus with a human.

But you keep convincing yourself with "dead" and "fetus". Perhaps someday you'll muster the courage to peck out two simple words, "killed" and "baby" when you decide to talk about my parades.

Thanks for reading just the same.

We want you now

So? You going to enlist or not? Bet all that jogging has made you buff. Join now. Please.

Re:We want you now

Bet all that jogging has made you buff

Are sure you didn't mean "I" want you now?

Re:Profanity and LISNews, a request for civility

you nor anyone is going to lecture me on civility

No, I am going to lecture on civility. We have all apparently lost our manners. Wither or not you--or the others--listen to said lecture, is another matter. . .

I am not talking about politics, or morality or war or antiwar, Amerika or Kanada or even red states and blue states. My dismay in this thread does not come from the ideas, but the manner in which they are expressed. I cannot abide direct insults or profanity from either side. It is poor form to post and moderate, but I confess that I have dealt it our to both sides. Direct insults are not appropriate here.Profanity or insults in a debate are nothing more than verbal feces flinging. It is the mark of a lost of control and reflects poorly on its user and their ideas.

Discourse should be reasoned and dispassionate with a consideration for the other's point of view. There should always be a respect for the other side's position and a willingness to consider their point of view. Without empathy the constructive synthesis of ideas cannot occur.
I can see my plea for civility has fallen on deaf ears. I am disappointed in many of you here today.

Re:"Candidate for ALA Council"

I'm going to vote for him. We could use a John Bolton-type in ALA.

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