Bush Urges Renewal of Patriot Act

Here is a story"Bush Urges Renewal of Patriot Act" on what is sure to be at least one of the campaign issues this election year.
"Asked Friday whether Bush was making a campaign issue of the Patriot Act, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the president is "going to continue to talk about it" and there are "some clear choices on this issue ... in this election.""
"Several conservative Republicans have joined liberal Democrats in saying that portions of the law are too intrusive on Americans' lives. They are threatening to allow the provisions to die at the end of next year."

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49.8 million say NO to USAPATRIOT

On April 15, 2004 Tampa, Florida joined 291 communities in 39 states to stand up against the USAPATRIOT Act. Go to the ACLU site for further information, model resolutions, and a full list of communities that have said NO.

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID =11256&c=206

Did you talk to all of those people?

I was in Tampa this morning; I think the USA Patriot Act is just fine. Just because 4 Tampa council members wasted their time and that of the rest of the council members to pass a resolution with absolutely no legal effect does not make everyone in Tampa opposed to the Act.


Pedophiles probably don't like those pesky laws about not abusing children, but it is the law. Laws are made for the greater good of society; the USA Patriot Act is for the greater good. Remember those people murdering thousands of people in the WTC? The minor inconvenience some may experience because of the USA Patriot Act is outweighed by the security of our nation.

Re:Did you talk to all of those people?

Laws are made for the greater good of society; the USA Patriot Act is for the greater good.

Ah, no! Ideally laws are made for the greater good of society. Most laws are simply stupid and counter-productive crypto-fascist efforts to micromanage the conduct of statistically normal individuals. Any law comprising three hundred pages of text that was passed in a couple of weeks and without proper debate cannot possible be of high quality.

Moreover, there are different levels of laws. The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, for example, constitute a series of metalaws which do in fact serve the greater good of society, and to which more mundane laws must be subject. A mundane law such as USAPA which is supposed to supercede the constitution is by default a bad law.

Where was the Patriot Act on 9-11?

What I heard at the hearings on 9-11 was people wringing their hands about why we didn't have a Patriot Act type cohesive plan in place before we were hit. Now we have one, and still the complaints come.

Re:Did you talk to all of those people?

I guess all the terrorist attacks since 9-11-2001 that have blown up Boston, Los Angeles, Topeka demonstrate that the USA Patriot Act is not a law that is good for society.

Sorry my mistake, those didn't happen. They happened in Bali and Madrid and Turkey. Too bad those places don't have Patriot Acts of their own.

Re:Did you talk to all of those people?

It seems that some countries do have analogues of USAPA, and here is what Tunisia seems to be doing with its equivalents of S215:

Eight young Internet users convicted of terrorism on no evidence

Reporters Without Borders today voiced shock and outrage today [sic] at
sentences of up to 26 years in prison imposed by a Tunis court on 6 April on eight Internet users from the southern city of Zarzis who were accused of promoting terrorist attacks on no other evidence than files downloaded from the Internet.

[...]

The eight were convicted of "forming a band to terrorize people...
aggression against individuals with the intent to terrorize... holding unauthorized meetings... theft and attempted theft... preparing explosive material [and] unauthorized possession of substances intended for making explosive devices."

Reporters Without Borders has been told that the prosecution produced no serious evidence against the defendants. The case file only contained a few files which they had downloaded from the Internet, such as information about the Kalashnikov rifle and documents explaining how to make a bomb. When the arrests were make, the police only confiscated a tube of a glue and a few CD-ROMs, which were the only evidence to support the allegation of making explosives.

[...]

According to several different sources, the young defendants just used the Internet to download files about the situation in the Middle East. They also reportedly talked with one of their teachers, Ridha Hadj Brahim (who is one of those convicted), about the best way to support the Palestinian cause.

Gee, that looks a lot like the argument someone put forth recently about being branded a terrorist for searching out how to blow up vermin in your backyard.

Re:49.8 million say NO to USAPATRIOT

What, did majorities on the councils and legislatures in 291 cities and 39 states total 49.8 million? Surely you don't mean that you have given city councilors in your city the right to take positions on your behalf on matters of national importance. I certainly haven't. That's why we have a federal suffrage.

These resolutions are undemocratic, an abuse of institutions of local government, and therefore also a waste of taxpayer money.

Re:What nonsense

You think maybe they were going to take that tube of glue and process a few tons of VX nerve gas with it? Even MacGyver would have a hard time with that one. Furthermore, there is more than one Palestinian cause. There are Palestinians who do not want the destruction of Israel, they just want Israel to stop raining death and destruction on Palestinian children. Happens I support that cause myself. And yes, I am fully aware that any criticism of Israel, no matter how valid, constitutes anti-semitism. So sue me. Or call Ashcroft and turn me in as a terrorist.

What nonsense

Reporters Without Borders today voiced shock and outrage today [sic] at sentences of up to 26 years in prison imposed by a Tunis court on 6 April on eight Internet users from the southern city of Zarzis who were accused of promoting terrorist attacks on no other evidence than files downloaded from the Internet.
Did you see those files downloaded from the Internet? I doubt they were verses from the Koran. Can't one send plans for terrorist attacks over the Internet? Or is that prohibited by the UN regulations on the Internet?


"Gee, that looks a lot like the argument someone put forth recently about being branded a terrorist for searching out how to blow up vermin in your backyard."
When people blow up vermin in the back yard they are not doing it to support the Palestinian cause.


If it makes you happier Cuba is still locking up librarians. They did set one free but only to get that kidney transplant he needs, then back to prison for him.

( http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/16/international/am ericas/16BRIE1.html?ex=1082692800&en=57f7ee23d2002 196&ei=5062 ) Read it there because it will never make American Libraries

Re:What nonsense

If you will recall MacGyver was a television program. It was a work of fiction. I realize that there are certain groups of people that have trouble separating fiction from fact, but I thought as a librarian you would have that down pat.


You assume that the group Reporters without Borders is a fair and impartial arbiter of justice. I think that the Tunisian court system is a better judge of the evidence than your reporters group.

Recall if you will that you labeled yourself an anti-Semite. If you want to associate with a hate group be my guest, just don't pretend to live in a civilized society with a rule of law. As a human I could never align myself with a hate group, as a librarian I am saddened that a member of this noble profession would publicly profess their anti-Semitism. You say that your anti-Semitism is valid criticism. How can hatred or discrimination be valid? A peaceful solution requires a dialogue among the parties, not slaughtering children on public transport.

Re:What nonsense

I realize that there are certain groups of people that have trouble separating fiction from fact [...]

Yes, there are such people. They are most easily identified by their lack of imagination and inability to deal with artistic devices such as imagery and metaphor. This lack of imagination commonly expresses itself through strict, literal interpretation.

You assume that the group Reporters without Borders is a fair and impartial arbiter of justice. I think that the Tunisian court system is a better judge of the evidence than your reporters group.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and I will point out that you make the same mistake with the ALA's position on Cuban librarians. By your criteria, the ALA is totally unqualified to do what you say they should. After all, isn't the Cuban court system a better mediator of Cuban justice than you or the ALA?

As a human I could never align myself with a hate group, as a librarian I am saddened that a member of this noble profession would publicly profess their anti-Semitisism.

You already have aligned yourself with hate groups -- anti-Castro-ites -- and publicly professed yourself to be a counter-revolutionary
running dog lackey of the imperealist Great Satan America. This, of course, is by your own criteria.

Cheers.

Re:What nonsense

Excellent retort, Fang-Face. You win. Decisively.

Re:Where was the Patriot Act on 9-11?

The Patriot Act itself is a law. Not a plan. It's not a plan to fight terrorism any more than RICO was a plan to fight organized crime.Additionally, it was a law passed BEFORE we had ANY "lessons learned" from 9/11. Rather like taking a car to the shop and having the mechanics replace random parts without diagnosing the car.You can have plans to fight terrorism without supporting the increased surveillence levels legalized under the PATRIOT Act.I think this whole discussion thread is showing how the Act has become a (secular) religious belief. I invite everyone reading this thread to take the PATRIOT Act Challenge and examine whether the Act is really meeting the needs of fighting terrorism and at what cost.

Re:Did you talk to all of those people?

AMEN

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